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Interpreting Carol Dweck's Motivation Questionairre

Last post 25/12/10 at 00:41 by weebecka, 353 replies
Post started by mature_maths_trainee on 12/12/10 at 11:59

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    Posted by: weebecka 20/12/2010 at 22:00
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956

    scentless_apprentice:
    But a lot of the time, we've got to look at the problems we have working at 'the coal face' - i.e. in the class!
     

    But this is a thread about Carol Dweck.....

    it's hardly a thread on 'What are the differences between the different entry level qualifications'.

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    Posted by: DM 20/12/2010 at 22:04
    Joined on 12/05/2003
    Posts 5,434

    weebecka:

     You have to come to a session first DM.......

    Oh I have spent enough time with you to know what I will hear weebs.

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    Posted by: Karvol 20/12/2010 at 22:05
    Joined on 30/06/2008
    Posts 1,421

    weebecka:

     I think part of the problem is people assume I'm not listening so they don't bother to work at it.

     

    I am not sure about that. I think part of the problem is that you don't seem to realise that people have thought about a priori and a posteriori knowledge in maths, whether or not it is objective or subjective knowledge ( it is pretty standard fare for the IB ) but that it has little relevance if the students cannot add two numbers together.

    Now it may be very well discussing what is, in reality, 7 x 8 or how we can describe a n-dimensional space using algebraic structures, but it doesn't get the students anywhere. In my mind all it is doing is purposefully avoiding the hard grind of actually teaching some fundamental building blocks of arithmetic, in order to pretend or even play at teaching mathematics. 

    I do not teach in a problem school, and I never have. The type of schools I teach in consider a problem student as one who cannot obtain an A or A* at IGCSE ( even that is not really true - my school does not even sit any external exam until the students are in their final year before university ). Class sizes are seldom in double figures and resources are anything you want. Even in this type of setting, the students learning the fundamentals of arithmetic and algebraic manipulation is vital. Without it they cannot do anything, learn anything or express themselves in any shape or form mathematically.

    All this talk about students creating theorems for themselves and discovering mathematics is frankly a pipe dream. An unfortunate relic of some 70's ideal still holding sway in teacher training colleges. Even if you take the most elite mathematical hothouses the English public school system has to offer, the US advocates of the Harkness system, etc. etc. you still require a great deal of guidance from a teacher. 

    If at the end of the day the students cannot do any basic arithmetic nor can they perform rudimentary algebra, then you, as a teacher, have failed. You may blame the failure on extenuating circumstances, on poverty, on poor social conditions, on a poor primary education but it does not excuse the fact that a student under your care has failed to learn basic mathematics. Each time a student leaves my classroom after two years of being in there without passing their mathematics IB exam at whatever level it may be at then I have failed them as a teacher.

    Do I believe all students are capable of learning? Yes, fundamentally all are capable of learning. Do I believe all are wanting to learn? No, most definitely not, no matter what excitement you may bring into your classes. 

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    Posted by: Nazard 20/12/2010 at 22:06
    Joined on 15/03/2009
    Posts 724

    DM:

    I like self-deprecating humour but I'm not particularly good at it.

    Now that is funny!

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    Posted by: Nazard 20/12/2010 at 22:21
    Joined on 15/03/2009
    Posts 724

    Maths_Mike:
    I just think that lots of us are fed up with people - many of whom have limited (either in time or type) teaching experience telling us what to do and why we are crap at our jobs and they are so much better.

    I mean anyone from Ed balls (or who ever his replacement is)

    Cutting ...

    Like it!

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    Posted by: weebecka 20/12/2010 at 23:04
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956

    Thanks for taking the time to write this Karvol.  

    Karvol:
    All this talk about students creating theorems for themselves and discovering mathematics is frankly a pipe dream. An unfortunate relic of some 70's ideal still holding sway in teacher training colleges. Even if you take the most elite mathematical hothouses the English public school system has to offer, the US advocates of the Harkness system, etc. etc. you still require a great deal of guidance from a teacher. 
     

    I'm not an idealist Karvol, I'm a pragamtist.

    Having witnessed some of the teachers who were nurtured in the environment of the 70's ideal and having used some of the methodologies they taught me, I know there are very powerful pedegogical tools there.

    Students creating theorems for themselves and discovering mathematics is not a pipe dream for me.  It's part of what I expect from my students.

    HOWEVER.

    This does not mean I compromise the disciplined teaching of curriculum and techniques.

     

    Now I know that's quite a claim to make because I fully understand the challenges of combining curriculum-orientated and process-orientated teaching.  We did have some schools here in Cumbria which were renouned for achieving this well but they were well resourced, had super-motivated staff and dedicated staff and existed in a pre-ofsted/nc era.

    Between 2000&2002 I was lucky enough to work on a British Council project which allowed a group of us to focus on understanding and predicting what the impact of broadband communication technology would be on teaching. 

    If you want to see some evidence of this, in 2003 Micromath asked for articles predicting the impact of ICT on maths teaching over the next 20 years.  My response is in the summer 2004 Micromath.

    It was very clear that communication technology had the potential to have a much bigger impact on maths teaching than stand alone computer technology ever did.

     

     

     

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    Posted by: Karvol 21/12/2010 at 00:17
    Joined on 30/06/2008
    Posts 1,421

    weebecka:

    Having witnessed some of the teachers who were nurtured in the environment of the 70's ideal and having used some of the methodologies they taught me, I know there are very powerful pedegogical tools there.

    Some examples then. What are they? You should be able to tell at least a few. Tell us some of the pedagogical gems that you remember from the 70's.

    weebecka:
    Students creating theorems for themselves and discovering mathematics is not a pipe dream for me.  It's part of what I expect from my students.

    That's interesting. You have barely taught a cohort, and done the odd lesson here and there in Jordan. Just where were these students?

    Unless of course we have vastly different requirements as to what consitutes discovering mathematics and creating theorems.

    The funny thing is that back in the late 90's I attended quite a few meetings discussing coursework and other aspects of GCSE and A Level syllabi.  Even the very best pieces of coursework that I saw didn't contain anything other than fairly trivial mathematics at best. If this was the very best that the exam boards had to offer, just what exactly were your students doing?

    Without being facetious, would you care to give some examples of what you deem "creating theorems and discovering mathematics"?

    weebecka:

    Between 2000&2002 I was lucky enough to work on a British Council project which allowed a group of us to focus on understanding and predicting what the impact of broadband communication technology would be on teaching. 

    If you want to see some evidence of this, in 2003 Micromath asked for articles predicting the impact of ICT on maths teaching over the next 20 years.  My response is in the summer 2004 Micromath.

    It was very clear that communication technology had the potential to have a much bigger impact on maths teaching than stand alone computer technology ever did.

     

     

    What does this have to do with the price of tea in Baghdad? You want me to see an article written in 2003 describing how mathematics teaching is going to develop with the impact of ICT and you expect it still to be relevant? What is the point of these paragraphs?

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    Posted by: weebecka 21/12/2010 at 09:40
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956
     
    Karvol:
    What is the point of these paragraphs?

    There are two themes here - the teaching I have received, seen and been part of the culture of which has influenced me.

     The way in which I have used ICT to carefully and coherently integrate curriculum-led teaching and process-led teaching. 

    It's better if I take one at a time rather than both together as that will confuse things.

    Which would you prefer I take on first?

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    Posted by: Karvol 21/12/2010 at 10:04
    Joined on 30/06/2008
    Posts 1,421

     I'd prefer it if you gave examples of the 70's pedagogical gems and the non-teacher led and independently discovered thereoms and the mathematical insights made by your pupil.

     

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    Posted by: weebecka 21/12/2010 at 10:27
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956

    Karvol:
    I'd prefer it if you gave examples of the 70's pedagogical gems and the non-teacher led and independently discovered thereoms and the mathematical insights made by your pupil.

    Okay, so in the 70s two interesting things happened for me.  The first was that my mother (previously a university lecturer who'd had a career break for four children) retrained as a primary school teacher.  Because of all the strikes my school was shut a lot when she did this so I went to her lectures with her.  Of course the educational psychology taught was a mess, but what it did do was it started her and me talking about everything.

    So my school introduced Scottish Maths (I've got the foundation stage book here beside me now), which was a very different scheme to what had come before in England.  From year 3 it was teach yourself. It worked brilliantly in my school because we were all literate and because the teachers kept some lessons each week for drill, so that wasn't lost.  

    The way Scottish Maths is written is contructivist in style so it, and the way it was introduced, was an interesting basis for discussion.  It certainly wasn't perfect, but it did have key benefits, the most obviously being that it took the cap of what students could achieve.  By the time I was in year 4 I was doing year 7 work.

    During the rest of my schooling I seemed to find myself on the Forrest Gump end of every random initiative & I just discussed it all with mum at this stage, trying to make sense of what was good and what was bad and why.  For example I went through the introduction of GCSE.  We had to do 6 projects, topics chosen by us.  Now this was a very powerful thing to do.  It challenged and stretched me as a mathematician in many unfamiliar and valuable ways.  But of course I was looking at the admin and logistics for my teachers and realising that the way the whole thing had been implemented was insane and unsustainable.  

    Meanwhile over in Cumbria, where I was to come to teach, a great deal was going on.  You had schools like Stainburn - really well respected for maths - running the 100% coursework GCSE. Then you had the likes of Wyndham, also very highly respected, teaching mixed ability up to year 9.  There were rural general schools and then there were schools like Ehenside, which developed vocational mathematics courses which they assessed themselves for their students .  

    All the teachers here were so deeply intelligent because they were used to developing, explaining and justifying their own curricula, modes of assessment and core purposes.  Many key characters came from here, for example Eric Love who went on to head up maths at the OU was head of maths at Wyndham. 

    These schools were not chaotic hippyfests Karvol.  They were very well organised, effective and highly respected school.

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