Forums

Interpreting Carol Dweck's Motivation Questionairre

Last post 25/12/10 at 00:41 by weebecka, 353 replies
Post started by mature_maths_trainee on 12/12/10 at 11:59

Rate this topic

Select colour:
  • Offline
    171
    Posted by: weebecka 21/12/2010 at 22:14
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956

    florapost:

    there is confusion as to what multiplication of 2 numbers in the decimal system is? the concept of multiplication has expanded with matrices, groups and all the things a humble primary school teacher can ignore most of the time, but expansion is not change

    so - i draw 7 rows of 3 dots each - you can argue i should draw 3 rows of 7 dots each - and yes, i do think that matters and it's something we're trying to standardize at school atm - and you count 'em and there's 21 dots

    where's the social construct? am i so going to regeret asking that?

     

    Okay florapost,

    So lets think about division first.  What's that?

    Well the current thinking at primary is that there are two primitives (fundamental ways of picturing it) for division. Splitting (how many each) and chunking.  Sure there are loads of abstract algorithms and you can learn facts, but there are two fundamental pictures.

    Working with my students on the sum,difference,product,quotient starter I posted just before, the two primitives became very obvious to them and they began to confidently and deliberately using more effectively.  But once we moved on to fractions and so on they began questioning whether these two primitives really cover division, or may splitting is really a sub-set of scaling or ratio?

    'What is division?' is a much more fluid question than I realised.

    So what about multiplication? 

    Is multiplication just scaling through repeated addition?  If there are two routes through division, why would there only be one route through multiplication since the processes are inverses of each other?

  • Offline
    172
    Posted by: bombaysapphire 21/12/2010 at 22:35
    Joined on 02/10/2005
    Posts 6,779

    weebecka:
    If there are two routes through division, why would there only be one route through multiplication since the processes are inverses of each other?

    The two routes through division arise because multiplication is commutative:

    3 x 7 = 7 x 3

    so if I split 21 into 7 groups there are 3 in each group.  If I split it into piles of 7 then there are three of them.

    I could postulate the argument that because multiplication is commutative so is division since the process are inverses of each other.  That is not the case.

    How long do you find your starter takes weebecka?  If it generates meaningful discussion then it must be difficult to keep it to a short timeframe.  I have found that different "always, sometimes, never true" activities are a good way to generate discussions which I would guess cover similar areas.

  • Offline
    173
    Posted by: DM 21/12/2010 at 23:35
    Joined on 12/05/2003
    Posts 5,434

    Shock news.   weebee's brain has just exploded and caused an earthquake in Cumbria.   I saw it on Sky News.

     

  • Offline
    174
    Posted by: weebecka 21/12/2010 at 23:39
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956

    bombaysapphire:

    weebecka:
    If there are two routes through division, why would there only be one route through multiplication since the processes are inverses of each other?

    The two routes through division arise because multiplication is commutative:

    3 x 7 = 7 x 3

    so if I split 21 into 7 groups there are 3 in each group.  If I split it into piles of 7 then there are three of them.

    I could postulate the argument that because multiplication is commutative so is division since the process are inverses of each other.  That is not the case.

     

    Nice logic.  The reasons for there being two routes through multiplication because there are two routes through division are, however, more compelling than division being commutative because multiplication is.

    Addition is commutative but subtraction is.  Yet the ways of picturing addition and subtraction link easily to each other.

    I didn't feel the earth tremour by the way.

     

    bombaysapphire:
    How long do you find your starter takes weebecka?  If it generates meaningful discussion then it must be difficult to keep it to a short timeframe.
     

     If you just do one pair of numbers it takes, on average, pretty normal starter time (5 mins ish).  Sometimes I allow a bit longer because it's worth it.  I find it easy to set up because I just write SDPQ and two numbers on the board, then can focus on settling the class and dealing with issues as they arrive. I always make them write the words - sum, difference, product, quotient before their answers.  They hate me for it but they sure know the vocabulary.  

    bombaysapphire:
    I have found that different "always, sometimes, never true" activities are a good way to generate discussions which I would guess cover similar areas.

    I like always, sometimes, never activities a lot - they keep students working and discussing efficiently at the boundaries of their knowledge. But I don't really find they cover the same area.

  • Offline
    175
    Posted by: scentless_apprentice 22/12/2010 at 08:59
    Joined on 26/02/2005
    Posts 143

    weebecka:
    'What is division?' is a much more fluid question than I realised.
     

    Yes, but that's because what you're dividing with affects how you divide.

    Methods of dividing into ratios, with fractions, or with integers vary, yes.

    But, none of these methods are subjective! They're all concrete processes, that are calculated differently because their applications are different! Not because there's some variance in the very notion of division!

    Division itself does not change. The application of division itself does.

  • Offline
    176
    Posted by: weebecka 22/12/2010 at 09:08
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956

    scentless_apprentice:
    Division itself
     

    What's division itself then?  Aren't we always applying it........

  • Offline
    177
    Posted by: scentless_apprentice 22/12/2010 at 09:25
    Joined on 26/02/2005
    Posts 143

     

    weebecka:

    scentless_apprentice:
    Division itself
     

    What's division itself then?  Aren't we always applying it........

    It is the inverse of multiplication. 

    A quotient (the answer of a division) is the number times a divisor fits into a dividend.

    Two pretty clear statements there.

    And yes, we are always applying it, but you seem to be confusing the application of a method with it's function.

  • Offline
    178
    Posted by: weebecka 22/12/2010 at 09:30
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 956

    scentless_apprentice:

    It is the inverse of multiplication. 

    A quotient (the answer of a division) is the number times a divisor fits into a dividend.

    Two pretty clear statements there.

    And yes, we are always applying it, but you seem to be confusing the application of a method with it's function.

     

    Hmmmm! Smile

    Does it matter if we teach division as being an abstract thing or should we teach it as being a concrete thing?

  • Offline
    179
    Posted by: scentless_apprentice 22/12/2010 at 09:39
    Joined on 26/02/2005
    Posts 143

     

    weebecka:
    Does it matter if we teach division as being an abstract thing or should we teach it as being a concrete thing?

    You should do both.

     

  • Offline
    180
    Posted by: bombaysapphire 22/12/2010 at 09:59
    Joined on 02/10/2005
    Posts 6,779

    weebecka:
    The reasons for there being two routes through multiplication because there are two routes through division are, however, more compelling than division being commutative because multiplication is.

    Why are they more compelling?  So are there two routes through multiplication?

    weebecka:

    Addition is commutative but subtraction is.  Yet the ways of picturing addition and subtraction link easily to each other.

    I assume that first sentence should end with isn't.

    The ways of picturing multiplication and division can link to each other.  Just draw an array.

Back to top

Sign up – it’s free!

  • Don’t miss out on the latest jobs
  • Connect and share with friends
  • Download thousands of resources
  • Chat in the forums