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A child regularly swearing at a teacher - telephone the police?

Last post 24/12/10 at 11:21 by dinx67, 253 replies
Post started by MissedOpportunity on 13/12/10 at 19:16

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  • BigFrankEM avatar
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    Posted by: BigFrankEM 14/12/2010 at 21:30
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    existentialtyke:

    Indeed it did Gary. I should have been more explicit in agreeing with you.

    Too many SLTs are hopeless at protecting the rights of their staff, as too many unions seem unable to force such rights.

    Which does of course eventually bring us round to the $64 000 question:

    Who is/are "the union" ?

    What is/ are the union´s "powers of persuasion" in a case such as this ?

     

    I think we should be told. Don´t you ?
  • resources4drama avatar
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    Posted by: resources4drama 14/12/2010 at 21:52
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    Crowbob:

    If this was a Crown/Magistrate case then the judgment you refer to is not binding, it is at the most persuasive. Precedent only binds lower courts in the hierarchy. 

    Secondly, if the CPS prosecuted the case on the basis of s.139 (which refers to a public place) it could be quite possible that this does not apply to schools. 

    S.139A creates a wholly different offence of having a bladed article on school premises. 

    Perhaps, in the case you refer to MM, the CPS just made a mistake in the route to prosecution...

     

    What bob says.

    They arraigned on the wrong offence.

  • Lilyofthefield avatar
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    Posted by: Lilyofthefield 14/12/2010 at 22:13
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    What do you want the Police to do then?  What's the charge?  Is it executable against a minor?  Are the child's human rights at risk here?  If the charge is brought and the child arrested, and the evidence produced (can you make children testify against a classmate?), what will the judge dish out as a sentence?  And what difference will it make? 

    If all you want is the brat out of your classroom and punished for rudeness, and the parents publicly criticised, there must surely be cheaper ways of doing it.
  • weebecka avatar
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    Posted by: weebecka 14/12/2010 at 22:22
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    lurk_much:

    airy:
    The kids who assaulted the staff were responsible.
     

    I thought that.

    Martyrdom is beyond the call of duty.

    Please - I am not trying to pick a fight here - just to give a little more context.

    Quite a lot of our students where in truly horrific circumstances at home. The would be up all night as big bro. kicked all the doors in again. Or they would be coping their parent having just been killed but not being allowed to grieve for him because he was abusing other members of the family. Etc. etc. etc.

    These students could cope with mainstream education if the staff were given the freedom to teach in ways which were more appropriate for them and if staff were allowed to decide interventions when students were not coping in particular classes.

    If all teacher freedoms are removed, the same students can become violent when put in classes with teachers they don't know and in situations they are afraid of.

    At what age is this the student's fault and should they get a criminal record for it?
  • p1j39 avatar
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    Posted by: p1j39 14/12/2010 at 22:43
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    weebecka:

    At what age is this the student's fault and should they get a criminal record for it?

     

    I do understand the pressures that these students are under but I'm afraid there is no excuse for assault in any circumstances. 

     I agree that a criminal record is not appropriate in some cases but what protection did you and the other staff have?  Would you have been just as forgiving and understanding if someone got seriously hurt by someone with a crappy life?
  • BigFrankEM avatar
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    Posted by: BigFrankEM 14/12/2010 at 22:49
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    weebecka:
    Please - I am not trying to pick a fight here

     

    Hilarious.
  • curlygirly avatar
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    Posted by: curlygirly 14/12/2010 at 23:05
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    weebecka:
    lurk_much:

    airy:
    The kids who assaulted the staff were responsible.
     

    I thought that.

    Martyrdom is beyond the call of duty.

    Please - I am not trying to pick a fight here - just to give a little more context.

    Quite a lot of our students where in truly horrific circumstances at home. The would be up all night as big bro. kicked all the doors in again. Or they would be coping their parent having just been killed but not being allowed to grieve for him because he was abusing other members of the family. Etc. etc. etc.

    These students could cope with mainstream education if the staff were given the freedom to teach in ways which were more appropriate for them and if staff were allowed to decide interventions when students were not coping in particular classes.

    If all teacher freedoms are removed, the same students can become violent when put in classes with teachers they don't know and in situations they are afraid of.

    At what age is this the student's fault and should they get a criminal record for it?

    I am reminded of the horrific home life of 2 young men; Robert Thompson and John Venebles. I am constantly amazed that the children in my school behave as well as they do, knowing what I do about how they live. However, should they assault or verbally abuse a member of staff they will be punished effectively. To ignore such behavior is to give licence to the pupil concerned and their classmates to behave just as they like. Children need boundaries. We can understand the cause of their behaviour but if we ignore it or accept it we are as guilty of neglect as their parents.
  • weebecka avatar
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    Posted by: weebecka 14/12/2010 at 23:16
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    p1j39:
    I do understand the pressures that these students are under but I'm afraid there is no excuse for assault in any circumstances.

    I agree there are no excuses.

    The consequences of a student misbehaviour should be two-fold. Firstly they should ensure that the misbehaviour does not happen again. Secondly they should ensure that the standards of behaviour of the group are clearly stated and reinforced.

    The second issue requires punishment. This need not necessarily be extreme punishment if there is no fear that the class will come to believe it is okay to imitate the unacceptable behaviour. It should be at the discretion of the school.

    The first issues requires an examination of the reasons for the problem. This can include discussing issues that the student has and putting in place provisions such as anger management options for them. Time out options and time spent talking and building trust between teacher and students are often critical for students coming from extreme circumstances.

    p1j39:
    what protection did you and the other staff have?
    We worked hard to support each other.
    p1j39:
    Would you have been just as forgiving and understanding if someone got seriously hurt by someone with a crappy life?
    No, I'm not particularly forgiving of the person who caused these attacks as she has consistently shown no insight into the consequences of her behaviour and is still being paid a huge salary to go round doing this kind of thing. When people show insight into their mistakes and learn from them it is much easier to forgive.
  • lovelylouboutins avatar
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    Posted by: lovelylouboutins 15/12/2010 at 07:25
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    weebecka:

    I agree there are no excuses.

    No you don't, you believe it is justifiable to assault someone in some circumstances but not in others. You think law should be enforced for some, not for others. You think you have the right to dictate that one person is dealt with differently because YOU decide they are worth more than another person. Law is law, it is either assault or it is not in your eyes. You think the police did something wrong because they tried to enforce law against someone who had assaulted you by your own admittance. You think HMI are responsible for individuals behaviour. You think that excused others mismanagement. It all points to you making huge excuses all round. I doubt any parent in the world would be happy with ANY excuse if their child came home having been assaulted by another pupil, not whether they were having a crappy day or whether the HMI had ballsed up. I would say most of us work in schools as you described. I'm a pastoral manager and deal with it all every day. You behave in a certain way, there are consequences and that should apply to everybody.
  • airy avatar
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    Posted by: airy 15/12/2010 at 07:54
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    weebecka:

    Quite a lot of our students where in truly horrific circumstances at home. The would be up all night as big bro. kicked all the doors in again. Or they would be coping their parent having just been killed but not being allowed to grieve for him because he was abusing other members of the family. Etc. etc. etc.

    These students could cope with mainstream education if the staff were given the freedom to teach in ways which were more appropriate for them and if staff were allowed to decide interventions when students were not coping in particular classes.

    If all teacher freedoms are removed, the same students can become violent when put in classes with teachers they don't know and in situations they are afraid of.

    None of these things justify serious assault. You cannot excuse assault on the grounds that a lesson was boring/unsuitable.
    weebecka:
    At what age is this the student's fault and should they get a criminal record for it?
    I believe we have set ages for criminal responsibility. As these differ in Scotland, you'll no doubt tell me that you can discount everything I've said. Regardless, I believe VERY strongly in taking a personal responsibility for one's behaviour and to blame assault (I am assuming here we're not talking about a 4 year old kicking out in frustration at not being allowed to play with sand) on HMIe is ludicrous. I'm not trying to pick a fight either but I will not let you imply that being assaulted is part of a teacher's job description, nor that violence is an excusable response to any lesson, no matter how poor.
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