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"Michael Gove: my revolution for culture in classroom" - ravings of a lunatic?

Last post 03/01/11 at 12:33 by seren_dipity, 204 replies
Post started by FolkFan on 28/12/10 at 18:36

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    Posted by: bgy1mm 02/01/2011 at 08:02
    Joined on 10/12/2009
    Posts 1,936

    T34:

    I don't understand why kids weren't expected to know times tables. After all it is only learning about 50 relationships, if that.

    It could be got over with by about the age of six and would be there for ever. What harm would it do?

    My younger daughter seemed to get through school without learning to spell or to estimate numerically. It has taken her years to remedy the situation.

     

    You need tables for two reasons, to do tiny multiplications in your head, and  to do long multiplication and long division with pencil and paper.

    As a general rule, you learn something by using it as the basis for future work.So children get their tables wrong for so long as they are given tables tests, know them fluently when they start using them for long multiplication and division.

    The problem is that there is no longer any practical point in doing paper and pencil long multiplication and division. It's easier to use a calculator. Whilst you can force children to do the procedure without a calculator, they know that the situation is entirely artificial.

    We need to rethink what we teach and how we teach arithmetic. My experience of raising this point on the maths forum has been very disappointing, as weebecka will attest.

     

     

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    Posted by: oldandrew 02/01/2011 at 09:11
    Joined on 08/01/2006
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    bgy1mm:
    You need tables for two reasons, to do tiny multiplications in your head, and  to do long multiplication and long division with pencil and paper.
     

    Didn't we get onto this sub-topic because I mentioned that you needed fluency with times tables to factorise quadratics effectively?

    You seem to have missed the very reason we were discussing it.

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    Posted by: weebecka 02/01/2011 at 10:02
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 823

    oldandrew:
    Didn't we get onto this sub-topic because I mentioned that you

    used to

    oldandrew:
    need... fluency with times tables to factorise quadratics effectively?

    Did you miss post 60 oldandrew?  I'm suspecting bgy1mm is perhaps more fluent with wolfram alpha than you.

    Are you aware that most students now have apps for it on their phones?

    A good understanding of the contexts, relevance and multiple forms of representation of quadratics combined with an understanding of how to solve them (I find 7 methods are better than 1) now suffices.

     

    Please don't use this post to suggest that I don't think we need to be fluent at multiplication, I do.  But I don't think it's particularly essential to be fluent at factorising quadratics unless we need to do it frequently for higher order skills in which case, as bgy1mm points out, we will become so anyway.

    Of course at present we have to make sure students have appropriate exam practice too.

     

    Ooops I seem to have shrunk again.

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    Posted by: oldandrew 02/01/2011 at 11:24
    Joined on 08/01/2006
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    weebecka:

    Did you miss post 60 oldandrew?  I'm suspecting bgy1mm is perhaps more fluent with wolfram alpha than you.

    Are you aware that most students now have apps for it on their phones?

     

    Not only do I not think that is true and if it was it would be pretty useless in exams, but it is still slower than doing it in your head. You could always have put the quadratic formula in a programmable calculator if you wanted to, even back when I was at school. However, it is no substitute for mathematical fluency. The best A-level maths students can factorise that sort of question in their head in less time than it takes to say the answer. The Chinese system seems to be producing a lot more of that sort of student than ours does. The scary thing, though, is that people are making excuses for that dumbing down and even pretending there is something wrong with the Chinese system for not having gone the same way.

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    Posted by: weebecka 02/01/2011 at 11:43
    Joined on 15/09/2010
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    oldandrew:
    Not only do I not think that is true

    It may not be at present for your students oldandrew but if you tell them to put the app on on the first day of term you'll find they're all rapidly using it effecitevely.  It doesn't half wreak havoc with homework as it will solve all straight forward problems and give steps for working.

    oldandrew:

    The best A-level maths students can factorise that sort of question in their head in less time than it takes to say the answer.

    Some can, some can't.

    oldandrew:
    However, it is no substitute for mathematical fluency

    I would rather my students explore the seven methods of solving quadratics than that they focus on drilling one method for speed.  I suppose it depends on whether you see A-level as being the ultimate outcome of whether you are scaffolding for deeper and wider understanding.

    oldandrew:
    The Chinese system seems to be producing a lot more of that sort of student than ours does. The scary thing, though, is that people are making excuses for that dumbing down and even pretending there is something wrong with the Chinese system for not having gone the same way.

    We aren't making excuses OldAndrew, we're trying to understand the precise, technical pedegogical issues here.  Have you read texts such as the one I recommended above?

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    Posted by: bgy1mm 02/01/2011 at 11:59
    Joined on 10/12/2009
    Posts 1,936

    oldandrew:

    Not only do I not think that is true and if it was it would be pretty useless in exams, but it is still slower than doing it in your head. You could always have put the quadratic formula in a programmable calculator if you wanted to, even back when I was at school. However, it is no substitute for mathematical fluency. The best A-level maths students can factorise that sort of question in their head in less time than it takes to say the answer. The Chinese system seems to be producing a lot more of that sort of student than ours does. The scary thing, though, is that people are making excuses for that dumbing down and even pretending there is something wrong with the Chinese system for not having gone the same way.

     

    No-one can factorise integers in better than O(sqrt(N)) time. Which means that almost no-one can do it at all unless the integers are pretty small. 

    I'm not aware of any sphere of applied mathematics where small quadratics crop up very frequently. That's not to say there are no such spheres, but most people, even if they go on to use mathematics professionally, won't encounter them.

    The reason for teaching quadratics at elementary levels is to develop mathematical fluency - get pupils used to algebraic manipulations, brackets, converting between algebraic and graph representations, and, admittedly, also to develop mental arithmetic. Exams are a means to an end, not an end in themselves, even if it doesn't seem like it with the current regime.

    However I'm principally interested in mathematical fluency with a computer. Everyone now has access to cheap computers - I'm typing this at one now. The ability to do mental arithmetic isn't of much use to me, the computer does three billion calculations a second, impossible for any human to even approach, much less to beat. Other people have made the point that degree-level mathematics, as opposed to what I do (statistics and mathematical modelling), is done without electronic assistance, which is maybe a legitimate reason for an emphasis on mental arithmetic in the early stages. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but we do need a mature debate on how to respond to the advent of computers, and what that means for maths education.

     

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    Posted by: oldandrew 02/01/2011 at 12:50
    Joined on 08/01/2006
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    And again, I need to remind you that this came up because of the issue of getting a grounding for studying more demanding mathematics.

    I think neither of you are making a good case here for this. Even programming a computer to do something mathematical is a lot easier if you can test your programme with calculations you can do mentally. As for the suggestion that students could be trained to use their phones for calculations that could, with practice, be done more quickly in their heads. Of course they could, it's hardly going to do them any good though.

    And this isn't simply a case of exams for their own sake, I'm not suggesting teaching to the test, just suggesting that we don't try to deliberately formulate a version of learning that is "practical" to the point of being dumbed down.

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    Posted by: DM 02/01/2011 at 12:56
    Joined on 12/05/2003
    Posts 5,309

    The last thing I want is students getting their phones out in lessons so that they can pretend to use a mathematical App.

    I still fondly remember the time when a student waved his first generation iPhone at me and said he was going to use it as a calculator and I asked him to calculate 156 - 3 with it and he told me the answer was 15597.

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    Posted by: weebecka 02/01/2011 at 13:09
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 823

    DM:

    The last thing I want is students getting their phones out in lessons so that they can pretend to use a mathematical App.

     

    Do you not have other technology with internet access in your classroom DM?  School technology is better as many unwanted websites are locked down.  At A-level (when you actually need this stuff) I don't have a problem with students using phones (unless the school does) provided they are properly prepared for exams.

    DM:
    I asked him to calculate 156 - 3 with it and he told me the answer was 15597.

    I'm sure that led to an excellent discussion DM.  If students are capable of making this error I'd rather know than not.

     

    OldAndrew - many apologies but I'm new here.  I'm not sure where you're coming from.  Could you tell me a bit more about your background so that I can understand why you hold your views?

     

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    Posted by: DM 02/01/2011 at 13:21
    Joined on 12/05/2003
    Posts 5,309

    weebecka:

    DM:

    The last thing I want is students getting their phones out in lessons so that they can pretend to use a mathematical App.

     

    Do you not have other technology with internet access in your classroom DM?  School technology is better as many unwanted websites are locked down.  At A-level (when you actually need this stuff) I don't have a problem with students using phones (unless the school does) provided they are properly prepared for exams.

    DM:
    I asked him to calculate 156 - 3 with it and he told me the answer was 15597.

    I'm sure that led to an excellent discussion DM.  If students are capable of making this error I'd rather know than not.

    OldAndrew - many apologies but I'm new here.  I'm not sure where you're coming from.  Could you tell me a bit more about your background so that I can understand why you hold your views?

    The original iPhone calculator didn't work weebee.  

    It didn't lead to an excellent discussion but it did lead to iPhone ridicule and that stopped the child from pulling the blasted thing out of his pocket to show it off 15 times each lesson so it served a purpose.

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