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"Michael Gove: my revolution for culture in classroom" - ravings of a lunatic?

Last post 03/01/11 at 12:33 by seren_dipity, 204 replies
Post started by FolkFan on 28/12/10 at 18:36

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    Posted by: Fran Carpenter 29/12/2010 at 21:49
    Joined on 11/04/2002
    Posts 199
    shalteir:

     I don't know about Chinese education directly, but as written above, I'd say the merit or otherwise will be in the actual results and effectiveness of the Chinese students when they enter the workforce.

    I think they are pretty effective!
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    Posted by: weebecka 29/12/2010 at 22:27
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 823

    The 'journal' Gove refers to is a good idea.

    The EPQ is proving a great success.  Perhaps students could be given the opportunity to write up their work for a journal. If it was well endorsed and getting into it came with appropriate cudos they would.

    Or, alternatively, we could have another cultural revolution in a somewhat less efficient attempt to achieve the same end.

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    Posted by: sideshow 29/12/2010 at 22:32
    Joined on 11/06/2003
    Posts 63,057
    weebecka:
    The EPQ is proving a great success.  Perhaps students could be given the opportunity to write up their work for a journal. If it was well endorsed and getting into it came with appropriate cudos they would.
    They can already! At post -16 you can get UCAS points for it. It is called the extended project.
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    Posted by: weebecka 29/12/2010 at 22:51
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 823

    sideshow:
    weebecka:
    The EPQ is proving a great success.  Perhaps students could be given the opportunity to write up their work for a journal. If it was well endorsed and getting into it came with appropriate cudos they would.
    They can already! At post -16 you can get UCAS points for it. It is called the extended project.
     

    Really?  can you give me a link to the journal please?  

    Or are you just explaining that the EPQ is the Extended Project Qualification?

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    Posted by: sideshow 29/12/2010 at 23:00
    Joined on 11/06/2003
    Posts 63,057
    What British journal is going to publish the work of a 16 year old? There is a big difference between getting your physics coursework bound and getting it published in nature!
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    Posted by: oldandrew 29/12/2010 at 23:14
    Joined on 08/01/2006
    Posts 5,490

    sideshow:
    The quadradtic equations proves what you are going against! you say that you have to remember facts. NO! I don't know my times tables that well either, but I do know HOW TO WORK THEM OUT... so I can work out that it has to be something to do with 7 and 8 as the answers...

    If you don't know your times tables well, where did the 7 and 8 come from?

    My point was that if you want to answer that question it really would take a long time if you had no ideas about the factors of 56. The more fluent you are at times tables the easier it is, and I find it hard to imagine somebody progressing to maths at degree level without at least the level of times table knowledge to think "7 times 8" when they see 56.

    sideshow:

    the only way to do that by rote is to remember the x = -b - or + square root etc.

    There's no point attacking the strawman position of "learning only through memorising lists of facts". The Chinese system is not so extreme as to leave students incapable of mathematical thought beyond the use of formulas. Far from it.

    sideshow:

    To be honest I learnt how to do simultaneous equations aged 6 without help of my teachers doing puzzle books... no one got me to remember stuff. Thinking skills. If you don't think that there are real thinking skills Andrew, then you are just plain wrong, there are explicit thinking skills in my subject that you can relate to all thing that you learn.

     

    I was very careful to say no generic thinking skills. Every subject has its ways of thinking and nobody is endorsing the idea that learning can be completely passive. The point is, however, that there is no way to simply separate subject knowledge and thinking, and just teach thinking without teaching knowledge, including factual knowledge. Nor can we simply attack an education system for its emphasis on memorising factual knowledge if we have no reason to believe that it doesn't produce effective thinkers.

    sideshow:

    There is no point in remembering everything, understanding how to work it out is more important and we need to encourage unique ways in doing this to encourage innovation and creativity. To do this students need to discuss their work... think about their thnking. metacognition.

     

    The point is that the ability to understand how to work something out is largely dependent on knwoledge. As for "innovation and creativity" these always conjure up mental images of inventors and artists but if we stop and think about it for a moment it is neither clear that these can be taught, that they don't depend on existing knowledge, nor that innovation is always for the best. Even in science there are things that have been known for thousands of years. We really don't need to expect students to be constantly reinventing the wheel.

    More generally, it is far from clear that all classroom discussion is beneficial, students often spread their misconceptions. As for metacognition, it is one of those jargon terms that obscures matters. It can mean the small body of study skills that are among the few generic skills that can be taught, but it can also be used to refer to nonsense like identifying learning styles.
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    Posted by: weebecka 30/12/2010 at 00:04
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 823

    sideshow:
    What British journal is going to publish the work of a 16 year old? There is a big difference between getting your physics coursework bound and getting it published in nature!
     

    Just invent one.  Publish the best stuff.  Invite the successful students to parliament for a reception.  Circulate the journal around schools (and of course have it avaialable electronically) so students can see examples of work that they can look up to.

    It's not rocket science.

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    Posted by: harsh-but-fair 30/12/2010 at 00:23
    Joined on 24/03/2006
    Posts 27,130

    sideshow:
    What British journal is going to publish the work of a 16 year old?

     

    A study of bumblebees by a group of Devon children has become the first primary school project to be published in a Royal Society scientific journal.<p>

     

     

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12051883

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    Posted by: PaulDG 30/12/2010 at 09:12
    Joined on 15/07/2002
    Posts 341
    oldandrew:

    My point was that if you want to answer that question it really would take a long time if you had no ideas about the factors of 56. The more fluent you are at times tables the easier it is, and I find it hard to imagine somebody progressing to maths at degree level without at least the level of times table knowledge to think "7 times 8" when they see 56.

    I find I now see both sides of this.

    I never really knew my tables "fluently" enough to know, at a glance, that 56 was 7x8. - So I used to be in the camp that said "you don't need to know your tables to, say, get a maths degree" so they're not important.

    What I now recognise though is that although I didn't know 56 was 7x8, I did recognise 56 as a multiple of 2 and also would have been pretty sure that it was very likely to be a multiple of 8. And I'd have effective mental/pen & paper strategies to confirm or refute those suspicions.

    What I now also recognise when teaching is the huge number of "learners" who not only don't know their tables as well as oldandrew does (far better than me) but don't even recognise tables as multiplication and struggle to see 56 is even, let alone have a clue how to decide if it's a multiple of 8.

    And, of course, they're not at all sure what "multiple" means...

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    Posted by: weebecka 30/12/2010 at 09:27
    Joined on 15/09/2010
    Posts 823

    oldandrew:
    Define fluently. How would you factorise x^2+x-56?
     

    http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=factorise+x^2%2Bx-56

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